INTERVIEW WITH
THELMA AGNES COLBERT/WALKER
THELMA AGNES COLBERT/WALKER
August 3, 2004 and August 5, 2004
These interviews were done by Molly Wood and Denise Shafer. Molly described them as follows.
"Sitting in the warm morning air, comfortable in cushioned porch chairs, Denise and I sat facing 92-year-old Thelma Agnes Walker. Her
blue eyes sparkled under her big round glasses and her short hair was swept back from her face as she sat at ease in a black cushioned
chair, swatting bugs and fanning herself. Her red heart-shaped "Jesus is a friend" pin glimmered from its spot on her light blue cotton
outfit, and she looked very comfortable in her fuzzy blue snowflake slippers. Thelma was willing to talk to us and answered the questions
put forth with as much as she could remember. She was full of stories, even if she could not quite remember dates. It was a pleasure to
chat with her and I believe she enjoyed it as well."
FULL NAME: Thelma Agnes Colbert Walker
(Colbert = maiden name, Goode = first married name, Walker = second married name)
DATE OF BIRTH: July 25, 1913
PLACE OF BIRTH: 405 Laurel Street, North Vernon (current place of residence as well)
Has lived several other places in the country, including Fort Wayne for four years, where she graduated from high school.
Has visited several other places, including Madison and Louisville in her childhood and Florida in her later years.
SIBLINGS: 10 children, 6 boys and 4 girls
Oldest boy: Alfred, then Logan, Alford, Bill, Roger, Freddy
Oldest girl: Annabel, then Mary, Sally, and Thelma
Thelma was the sixth child in the list
Logan was a part of Al Capone's gang, was in jail
Alford was a "hobo"
PARENTS: Father = Fred Colbert, from Kentucky, worked at Bott's Saloon downtown then worked for the railroad, where he was hit by an engine and broke a few ribs and died in the Indianapolis hospital.
Mother = Mary Elizabeth Sanders, from Kentucky, took in washings and ironings from others, worked at the fair at least one summer.
GRANDPARENTS: Maternal grandfather = did not know
Maternal grandmother = Mandy Sanders, who lived in Madison, Indiana; was a slave, would tell stories about her experiences, lived to be 112 years old, Thelma's mother and aunt Ella Neal would take turns caring for their mother sometimes for each year, Thelma's mother would go down to Madison to see her.
One story of Mandy's: she papered her room in Confederate one dollar bills, since they weren't worth anything, forgot where the house was when Thelma would ask.
Another story of Mandy's: she remembers being put on a block and being auctioned off during slavery.
RELATIONS: visited family in Louisville - they would come and pick up her and her siblings in their car, would spend a long time (even whole summers) with them, sometimes rode train down, father would try to drive in their Ford Model T to Madison but would have flat tires on the way (never would get past Cedar Grove without a flat).
Ella Neal was her mother's sister; she and her mother would take turns taking care of their mother Mandy Sanders in Madison, her mother would go to Madison to see her, Ella's husband's name was Henry Neal.
THELMA'S HUSBANDS: first husband = Roger Clarence Goode, from Baltimore, Maryland, had 5 children together, met at lunch at Muscatatuck where they both worked, married in Vernon, Jennings County, on July 26, 1934 by Rev. Chesley Holmes worked at Webster's Garage by the Plain Dealer office for many years until he died sometime after their last son was killed at 21, buried at Hillcrest Cemetery.
Second husband = William Walker, had no children, married by Reverend Brooks (who was the pastor at Second Methodist) at his house in the country married for 10 years then he died, buried at Hillcrest Cemetery.
THELMA'S CHILDREN: 5 total, all had with Goode
Patricia (married Green)
Isalean (married Johnson, got name from a radio program that Thelma heard and liked the name, she nor the doctor knew how to spell, he found out for her)
Roger Jr. (Goode)
Maryann (married White)
Marion Edward (deceased, died on his 21st birthday in a car wreck on the way to a dance in Madison with his friends to celebrate)
CHILDHOOD MEMORIES:
Growing up = lived in the same house as she does now, was the same except had a stoop instead of a porch (she added that on later), had rabbits and chickens in the yard, her brothers would go hunting with their guns, their father showed them how, didn't need a license, from ages 14-16ish, never had a television growing up, were rather poor, barely could afford electric lights, had a radio that her mother would listen to (remembers her hearing "Amos and Andy") and they had to be "still," no blacks artists on the radio then.
Fair was where the NV Park is today, her mother would fix food in the tub and they would spend all Thursday at the fair, that was the "big day," there was horse racing, displays, rides, had to pay 50 cents for children to enter, then the rides cost more.
One story: she and her siblings snuck in under a fence, she tore her dress, her mother wouldn't let her go back home and change so she went around finding people she knew and got pins to fix her skirt.
One story: one year her mother had gotten a job taking care of the women's toilets at the fair, and she could get in free, her and her siblings would take their mother lunch and would have to tell the ticket taker who they were and why they wanted in.
She and her siblings didn't have set chores, they did what their parents needed them too, they had an old well that they had to fetch water from called "the hollow," when it went dry occasionally they had to walk down the hill to get water from a neighbor's well, there used to be two houses next door and one across the street, mother washed on a washboard, took in washings from other families.
Sometimes her family (and community?) would have picnics in Klein's Grove (in grove of trees directly to the west and across highway 3 from the new fair sign) one time a year, but no real family reunions.
18 when got driver's license, had to take a driving course and pass a test, had been driving for years, father liked to buy lots of old cars, brother had an old car (didn't need a license) and she would ride with him.
One story: there was a field behind their house (now "Erler's Field") that she and her siblings and children from the neighborhood would use as a race track and race cars, no one got hurt and the parents didn't mind, kids from all over the community would come ("nothing but kids" in this area)
First date: she went to a dance in town, in the upstairs of a building (where Ruby Jane's apartments are, across from the First National Bank), it was "something else" and had a live band, dated several different boys before marrying, rode in horse and buggies.
Holidays: Christmas: her brothers would go and chop down a tree, they would decorate it with paper cutouts and popcorn strings, boys would get sleds and girls would get dolls, the school would let out, church had program. Easter: no bunny, hunt eggs in O'Neal's field, Church program. Halloween: soak windows, throw corn and cabbage on different nights, got it from Erler's field, trick or treat, liked going downtown to jailhouse because got bars of candy, some people put soap in candy.
Had "street dances" in the street by roping off 4 streets, Laurel and Hicks, had live bands.
SCHOOL MEMORIES: Laurel Street School = She attended school at the Laurel Street School, it was always a school for her, she attended until grade 8 which was at the high school, she remembers two of her brothers going there, but her two older brothers wandered and didn't go (Alfred was a "hobo" and Logan was in Al Capone's gang, he was in prison and broke out) and her two oldest sisters didn't stay home after grown, just the four littlest went to school and stayed home.
She learned the "3 R's" (reading, writing, and arithmetic), along with proverbs, there was no "homework" because the kids learned in school then left, history was her hardest subject, school met from September to May, walked home for lunch, sometimes traded things like paper for sandwiches or food (chicken) from the "country kids" who always had things to eat, since they might not get food at home, the kids didn't have slates but used paper, there were blackboards for the teacher, her school was seldom behind the other schools, they found they had the same education as the whites when they mixed in 8th grade, the attendance officer would come out and plan lessons with her teacher so the lessons stayed similar to other schools.
There was no running water inside the building but the house next door to the school let the school use its well for free, kids took turns fetching water (volunteered, especially if they hadn't learned their lessons yet), the boys took turns getting coal buckets (there was a big potbellied stove inside for heat).
It was a two room schoolhouse, with the little room being for grade 1-4 and the big room being for grades 5-7. She thinks there were different teachers for each room.
Teachers came and went because the kids were "bad" and "big," they always had black teachers of both sexes, she remembers Mr. Williams who was from Franklin, Mr. Goins who was from North Vernon, Miss Davidson and Miss Hughey were the only female teachers she remembered, she thinks there were mostly male teachers.
She attended high school beginning with grade 8, there were two schools, the first one on Poplar Street (where a bus stop is today) and it burnt down, they built another one and she went there too, there were both black and whites there, she doesn't remember any problems with segregation or fighting.
She quit school after her junior year to work at Muscatatuck for 6 or 7 years, then got married and then transferred with her husband to Fort Wayne, where she graduated from high school there.
There was another school house she remembers on State Street, across from where Erich K. is today.
COMMUNITY: Police walked, didn't ride horses or have cars, and there were no blacks on the police force.
Next door to her house there was a social hall (this was probably Speaks Hall mentioned in some of the Colored Folks column in the local newspapers) that belonged to the Second Methodist Church that Bill Harmon built (she bought the plot years later, and owns it now and had the hall torn down), she used it after she was married, it was mainly used for selling food items like ice cream pies, cakes and fried fish. This building was 2 stories with a kitchen and Sunday school rooms. Before the Baptist Church was built, she went to the Second Methodist Church with her mother, all blacks went to the service, some people came to church in a horse and buggy and kids could get a nickel for watching the horse and feeding it bunches of grass.
The Second Methodist church would have programs for holidays; the kids would say a poem and sing songs for Christmas.
For Easter they would have an egg hunt in the O'Neil's field behind the house, there was no Easter Bunny, the church had a program.
For Halloween the church didn't have a program, but she and her friends would have a night where they would soak windows, throw corn, throw cabbage, and trick or treat as well, would go downtown to the jailhouse for candy bars.
Used to rope off the 4 streets (around Laurel and Hicks) and have street dances, with a live band, mothers would sell food for the churches.
PERSONAL FACTS: She likes all types of music, mostly church music, but enjoys Diana Ross and the Supremes and Dean Martin.
She did not expect to live this long, past her 90s.
She's had an overall happy life.
She worked at Muscatatuck State Hospital where she met her first husband, worked her way up and was transferred to Fort Wayne hospital for 4 years, she didn't like it up there, it was "too fast"
She would like to visit Hawaii because her daughter went there and told her it was nice and pretty, has been lots of places (including Florida)
She is a Baptist, her uncle built the Baptist Church on Hicks Street (his name was Gloster Taylor, the only black contractor) and her mother started going there so her children did to, later the Corinthian Baptist church was built.
The worst thing she remembers was being married (living in same house) with 4 kids and had to go to work for the Webster's rather than stay home with her children because her husband had died, there was no welfare or other means to support her family, had to work.
One hobby she had was to make quilts, she learned from her mother how to, her mother used to use old clothes and pants.
She has 26 great grandchildren and at least 3 great great grandchildren, there are 5 generations of hers alive currently.
Thelma passed away July 20, 2010, she was 96 years old, she died in Fort Wayne, Indiana but was brought back to Jennings County for burial at Hillcrest Cemetery. We do now have records to answer some of the questions that Thelma could not remember back when she gave this interview, thanks to so many records now being on line.
(Colbert = maiden name, Goode = first married name, Walker = second married name)
DATE OF BIRTH: July 25, 1913
PLACE OF BIRTH: 405 Laurel Street, North Vernon (current place of residence as well)
Has lived several other places in the country, including Fort Wayne for four years, where she graduated from high school.
Has visited several other places, including Madison and Louisville in her childhood and Florida in her later years.
SIBLINGS: 10 children, 6 boys and 4 girls
Oldest boy: Alfred, then Logan, Alford, Bill, Roger, Freddy
Oldest girl: Annabel, then Mary, Sally, and Thelma
Thelma was the sixth child in the list
Logan was a part of Al Capone's gang, was in jail
Alford was a "hobo"
PARENTS: Father = Fred Colbert, from Kentucky, worked at Bott's Saloon downtown then worked for the railroad, where he was hit by an engine and broke a few ribs and died in the Indianapolis hospital.
Mother = Mary Elizabeth Sanders, from Kentucky, took in washings and ironings from others, worked at the fair at least one summer.
GRANDPARENTS: Maternal grandfather = did not know
Maternal grandmother = Mandy Sanders, who lived in Madison, Indiana; was a slave, would tell stories about her experiences, lived to be 112 years old, Thelma's mother and aunt Ella Neal would take turns caring for their mother sometimes for each year, Thelma's mother would go down to Madison to see her.
One story of Mandy's: she papered her room in Confederate one dollar bills, since they weren't worth anything, forgot where the house was when Thelma would ask.
Another story of Mandy's: she remembers being put on a block and being auctioned off during slavery.
RELATIONS: visited family in Louisville - they would come and pick up her and her siblings in their car, would spend a long time (even whole summers) with them, sometimes rode train down, father would try to drive in their Ford Model T to Madison but would have flat tires on the way (never would get past Cedar Grove without a flat).
Ella Neal was her mother's sister; she and her mother would take turns taking care of their mother Mandy Sanders in Madison, her mother would go to Madison to see her, Ella's husband's name was Henry Neal.
THELMA'S HUSBANDS: first husband = Roger Clarence Goode, from Baltimore, Maryland, had 5 children together, met at lunch at Muscatatuck where they both worked, married in Vernon, Jennings County, on July 26, 1934 by Rev. Chesley Holmes worked at Webster's Garage by the Plain Dealer office for many years until he died sometime after their last son was killed at 21, buried at Hillcrest Cemetery.
Second husband = William Walker, had no children, married by Reverend Brooks (who was the pastor at Second Methodist) at his house in the country married for 10 years then he died, buried at Hillcrest Cemetery.
THELMA'S CHILDREN: 5 total, all had with Goode
Patricia (married Green)
Isalean (married Johnson, got name from a radio program that Thelma heard and liked the name, she nor the doctor knew how to spell, he found out for her)
Roger Jr. (Goode)
Maryann (married White)
Marion Edward (deceased, died on his 21st birthday in a car wreck on the way to a dance in Madison with his friends to celebrate)
CHILDHOOD MEMORIES:
Growing up = lived in the same house as she does now, was the same except had a stoop instead of a porch (she added that on later), had rabbits and chickens in the yard, her brothers would go hunting with their guns, their father showed them how, didn't need a license, from ages 14-16ish, never had a television growing up, were rather poor, barely could afford electric lights, had a radio that her mother would listen to (remembers her hearing "Amos and Andy") and they had to be "still," no blacks artists on the radio then.
Fair was where the NV Park is today, her mother would fix food in the tub and they would spend all Thursday at the fair, that was the "big day," there was horse racing, displays, rides, had to pay 50 cents for children to enter, then the rides cost more.
One story: she and her siblings snuck in under a fence, she tore her dress, her mother wouldn't let her go back home and change so she went around finding people she knew and got pins to fix her skirt.
One story: one year her mother had gotten a job taking care of the women's toilets at the fair, and she could get in free, her and her siblings would take their mother lunch and would have to tell the ticket taker who they were and why they wanted in.
She and her siblings didn't have set chores, they did what their parents needed them too, they had an old well that they had to fetch water from called "the hollow," when it went dry occasionally they had to walk down the hill to get water from a neighbor's well, there used to be two houses next door and one across the street, mother washed on a washboard, took in washings from other families.
Sometimes her family (and community?) would have picnics in Klein's Grove (in grove of trees directly to the west and across highway 3 from the new fair sign) one time a year, but no real family reunions.
18 when got driver's license, had to take a driving course and pass a test, had been driving for years, father liked to buy lots of old cars, brother had an old car (didn't need a license) and she would ride with him.
One story: there was a field behind their house (now "Erler's Field") that she and her siblings and children from the neighborhood would use as a race track and race cars, no one got hurt and the parents didn't mind, kids from all over the community would come ("nothing but kids" in this area)
First date: she went to a dance in town, in the upstairs of a building (where Ruby Jane's apartments are, across from the First National Bank), it was "something else" and had a live band, dated several different boys before marrying, rode in horse and buggies.
Holidays: Christmas: her brothers would go and chop down a tree, they would decorate it with paper cutouts and popcorn strings, boys would get sleds and girls would get dolls, the school would let out, church had program. Easter: no bunny, hunt eggs in O'Neal's field, Church program. Halloween: soak windows, throw corn and cabbage on different nights, got it from Erler's field, trick or treat, liked going downtown to jailhouse because got bars of candy, some people put soap in candy.
Had "street dances" in the street by roping off 4 streets, Laurel and Hicks, had live bands.
SCHOOL MEMORIES: Laurel Street School = She attended school at the Laurel Street School, it was always a school for her, she attended until grade 8 which was at the high school, she remembers two of her brothers going there, but her two older brothers wandered and didn't go (Alfred was a "hobo" and Logan was in Al Capone's gang, he was in prison and broke out) and her two oldest sisters didn't stay home after grown, just the four littlest went to school and stayed home.
She learned the "3 R's" (reading, writing, and arithmetic), along with proverbs, there was no "homework" because the kids learned in school then left, history was her hardest subject, school met from September to May, walked home for lunch, sometimes traded things like paper for sandwiches or food (chicken) from the "country kids" who always had things to eat, since they might not get food at home, the kids didn't have slates but used paper, there were blackboards for the teacher, her school was seldom behind the other schools, they found they had the same education as the whites when they mixed in 8th grade, the attendance officer would come out and plan lessons with her teacher so the lessons stayed similar to other schools.
There was no running water inside the building but the house next door to the school let the school use its well for free, kids took turns fetching water (volunteered, especially if they hadn't learned their lessons yet), the boys took turns getting coal buckets (there was a big potbellied stove inside for heat).
It was a two room schoolhouse, with the little room being for grade 1-4 and the big room being for grades 5-7. She thinks there were different teachers for each room.
Teachers came and went because the kids were "bad" and "big," they always had black teachers of both sexes, she remembers Mr. Williams who was from Franklin, Mr. Goins who was from North Vernon, Miss Davidson and Miss Hughey were the only female teachers she remembered, she thinks there were mostly male teachers.
She attended high school beginning with grade 8, there were two schools, the first one on Poplar Street (where a bus stop is today) and it burnt down, they built another one and she went there too, there were both black and whites there, she doesn't remember any problems with segregation or fighting.
She quit school after her junior year to work at Muscatatuck for 6 or 7 years, then got married and then transferred with her husband to Fort Wayne, where she graduated from high school there.
There was another school house she remembers on State Street, across from where Erich K. is today.
COMMUNITY: Police walked, didn't ride horses or have cars, and there were no blacks on the police force.
Next door to her house there was a social hall (this was probably Speaks Hall mentioned in some of the Colored Folks column in the local newspapers) that belonged to the Second Methodist Church that Bill Harmon built (she bought the plot years later, and owns it now and had the hall torn down), she used it after she was married, it was mainly used for selling food items like ice cream pies, cakes and fried fish. This building was 2 stories with a kitchen and Sunday school rooms. Before the Baptist Church was built, she went to the Second Methodist Church with her mother, all blacks went to the service, some people came to church in a horse and buggy and kids could get a nickel for watching the horse and feeding it bunches of grass.
The Second Methodist church would have programs for holidays; the kids would say a poem and sing songs for Christmas.
For Easter they would have an egg hunt in the O'Neil's field behind the house, there was no Easter Bunny, the church had a program.
For Halloween the church didn't have a program, but she and her friends would have a night where they would soak windows, throw corn, throw cabbage, and trick or treat as well, would go downtown to the jailhouse for candy bars.
Used to rope off the 4 streets (around Laurel and Hicks) and have street dances, with a live band, mothers would sell food for the churches.
PERSONAL FACTS: She likes all types of music, mostly church music, but enjoys Diana Ross and the Supremes and Dean Martin.
She did not expect to live this long, past her 90s.
She's had an overall happy life.
She worked at Muscatatuck State Hospital where she met her first husband, worked her way up and was transferred to Fort Wayne hospital for 4 years, she didn't like it up there, it was "too fast"
She would like to visit Hawaii because her daughter went there and told her it was nice and pretty, has been lots of places (including Florida)
She is a Baptist, her uncle built the Baptist Church on Hicks Street (his name was Gloster Taylor, the only black contractor) and her mother started going there so her children did to, later the Corinthian Baptist church was built.
The worst thing she remembers was being married (living in same house) with 4 kids and had to go to work for the Webster's rather than stay home with her children because her husband had died, there was no welfare or other means to support her family, had to work.
One hobby she had was to make quilts, she learned from her mother how to, her mother used to use old clothes and pants.
She has 26 great grandchildren and at least 3 great great grandchildren, there are 5 generations of hers alive currently.
Thelma passed away July 20, 2010, she was 96 years old, she died in Fort Wayne, Indiana but was brought back to Jennings County for burial at Hillcrest Cemetery. We do now have records to answer some of the questions that Thelma could not remember back when she gave this interview, thanks to so many records now being on line.
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